Cannabis, DNA, and You: Why One Dose Never Fits Everyone

0:00 Cold Open: You Are Your Most Important Patient

Len May: I believe that some of these are shutting down the noise that's in our brain and letting us focus and open up to new things. When I was a kid, I was diagnosed with ADHD and I was put on prescription medication, but it removed my sense of my emotional self. We need to get out of this whole cookie cutter approach to this sick care system that we have in the United States. You are your most important patient.

0:31 Welcome to Regeneration Effect

Dr. Yi Song: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Regeneration Effect. We're talking about anything from regenerative medicine to any trendy biohacking or even anything related to health and longevity or even our mind, body based on science and evidence. We're happy to have Len May here today, and he is an entrepreneur all his life, and he has a lot of stories to tell you. And his main thing right now is about endocannabinoid system and EndoDNA to address your body's inherent capability to process cannabis and how you should take it. Welcome, Len.

Len May: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Yi Song: So how did you get into cannabis?

1:26 ADHD, Prescription Meds, and Discovering Cannabis

Len May: Yeah, well, cannabis is sort of my life supplement, I guess I should say. When I was a kid, I was diagnosed with ADHD and I was put on prescription medication. And what happened was, I can't say it didn't work. It worked by helping me to focus, but it removed my sense of my emotional self. There's no like, I mean, I feel happy, I feel sad. I'm just coasting through the world. And I'm not advocating this in any way, but I was going to school, and these kids were a little older than me. They asked me if I want to smoke a cigarette with them. It's like, yeah, cool. Hang out with the cool kids, smoke a cigarette. I didn't question why they had one cigarette. So they passed around their cigarette. I took a drag. It didn't really taste like the cigarette I remember because I was dabbling and trying as well. So I took another drag, they're laughing at me. They ended up putting cannabis in the cigarette. And what happened was, for people that maybe can relate to this, sometimes ADD is like when you have a lot of browser windows open at the same time, and you're sort of going from one browser window to another. And what happened was my browser window sort of narrowed and I could focus. And I was like, oh, well, this became my go to medicine.

Yes, it was illegal. Yes, my parents didn't like it at all. They would catch me and ended up punishing me and then ended up kicking me out of the house basically.

Dr. Yi Song: Oh, so they found out.

Len May: Oh, yeah, they found out. They called the cops on me. They called the police on me, tried to have me arrested. And my dad literally kicked me out of the door. So I didn't speak to them for years. But now they take formulations that my company has patents on and are very proud of the work that my company does. So it came full circle.

3:21 The Path to Launching EndoDNA

Dr. Yi Song: So then how did you eventually get into this EndoDNA adventure?

Len May: Yeah. So like we talked briefly before this about being a polymath. Having this urge to learn different things and become sort of an expert, just because you're so interested in it, you do a deep dive. So I had all these different jobs and all these different vocations that were of interest to me temporarily. And I think one of the mistakes that some people make who are polymaths or ADHD, they tend to stay in a thing that no longer stimulates them. You're no longer getting the dopamine hit, but you're still stuck. And what I pushed myself to do was get out and do something else, learn something else.

So at some point, I was a commercial real estate broker for a company called Keller Williams. And I was in Philadelphia, but I moved to California to Los Angeles. And I was sitting in a real estate office. And these guys came in, they want to open up an alternative pharmacy. Like, okay, alternative pharmacy sounds good. What is that? What do you mean? Cannabis dispensary. So this 2010 under Prop 215 SB 420, it's legal, but it's medicinal, and it's a not for profit entity. There's a lot of paperwork that's involved in that. So I asked them, where's their paperwork? They didn't have any. So I said, I'll help you. So long story, a little bit longer, I ended up helping them with a dispensary. They offered me a partnership and I came in as a partner. And we ended up opening four dispensaries.

But the thing that I started seeing was two people will consume the same varietal and have a completely different experience. So my ADD kicked into hyper-focus mode. I saw a video by this guy who genetically sequenced the plant. And I reached out to him and ended up working with this company going around the country, getting plant material, bringing it back to lab, extracting DNA and sequencing it. So they taught me how to do that from the plant, which was great. And I started understanding, we're calling this plant different names, but really it's about the components of the plant, the cannabinoids, the terpenoids, all these different things that make it unique. And then the parent company did pharmacogenomics testing, the study of how drugs affect individuals and contraindications. So I started getting the human genetics. And then I had a light bulb moment. I said, we have plant genetics here. We have human genetics here. Let's bring those two together and guide people to a more personalized experience. They really weren't interested in that. They really wanted to focus on the plant, close down the human side. So I ended up grabbing a couple of scientists with me and launching EndoDNA in December of 2017.

6:28 Side Effects, Munchies, and the Vagus Nerve

Dr. Yi Song: Okay. So when you were self medicating yourself with cannabis, did you feel the side effects of it?

Len May: Well, side effects are open to interpretation. Side effects can be positive side effects, side effects can be adverse effects. So the side effects of cannabis that I felt were munchies, feeling satiated. And for me, I try to go one level deeper. Why? I always ask why. When I was a little kid, I was like the why guy. I'm just super curious to find out. So I started researching why cannabis, especially Delta 9 THC, creates this side effect of feeling hunger, wanting to feel satiated. So there's a signaling from the endocannabinoid system that goes to the vagus nerve that stimulates ghrelin production. Ghrelin is the signal of what makes us feel hunger and more than hunger, feeling satiated. So it's not like when you consume, you have this munchies for kale and salad. You want to eat fat, sugar and salt because you want to feel satiated. So that's a side effect. And you learn how to control some of that. So maybe don't have a bunch of M&Ms in your house, maybe have healthier munchies.

I haven't really experienced this because I'm not genetically predisposed, but some people experience stress reactivity. Some people experience other mood. I don't have that predisposition. It's interesting. I did both my parents' DNA tests. My mom, she wouldn't mind me saying this, has every one of the stress and mood markers. So stress and depressive markers. My dad has none, zero, nothing, extremely rare because I've done thousands of these. I have one, which is a depressive marker. And I think it only got triggered when I was going through my divorce many years ago. I did feel a little bit depressed, but I don't get that side effect of stress reactivity from cannabis.

You need to understand sometimes what the side effects are versus what the effects of the plant are. It's a vasodilator, so your blood will pump, your heart will work fast, so you're going to have that excess beating of your heart, which is normal. If I accept that as normal, that's part of the action of the plant, then there's no real side effect to that.

9:22 Intuition, Evolution, and the Endocannabinoid System

Dr. Yi Song: So then back then when you were experimenting with cannabis yourself, you didn't know that different people have different types of reaction to the same kind of cannabis ingredient.

Len May: I didn't even know there was an endocannabinoid system. I had no idea. There's an intuition. I think we are too busy blocking our own intuition and what actually works for you. Plants, we grew up with plants. This plant specifically evolved with us. We're receptors for this plant. And I talk a lot about things that we evolve out of. Why do we have an appendix? We probably had a use for it way back when, but right now, we evolve out of it. So the cannabis receptors are still there. And it's an amazing modulating system. And when I started finding out about the system, I started to understand why phytocannabinoids are important to balance our deficiencies. And the amount that you take and which components of the plant make a huge difference. When you have this adverse effect, maybe you're taking too much of whatever you need. And I think it's normal throughout anything that we consume. We can take too much acetaminophen, too much sugar, too much caffeine, too much alcohol. But we don't blame the company that produced the alcohol. We blame ourselves. We say, I drank too much. Maybe I shouldn't drink that much. So I find it fascinating that we blame this plant. This plant didn't tell us how much to take. We made that choice. So yeah, listen to your body.

11:16 How Len's Parents React Differently to THC

Dr. Yi Song: But then you said your mother has completely different composition or the sensitivity to endocannabinoid system from your father. So when they took the cannabis, what kind of reaction did they have?

Len May: My mom doesn't do well with Delta 9 THC at all. Even a little bit of it makes her feel anxious. My dad, really no real effect, no adverse effects whatsoever. So he's okay. He actually had an injury and he was taking something that's analgesic. And I said, listen, take what you need, but let's taper it down so you're consuming more cannabidiol, CBD, so it's anti-inflammatory, and then the Delta 9 THC will act as an analgesic for the time being until you don't need it anymore. So we'll rebalance it at some point.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, so are they still taking it regularly or only when they need it?

Len May: Only when they need it.

12:12 Dosage, Strains, and the FAAH Gene

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, but then how do you determine the dosage and even the strain? Because if you test people and they have different genetic composition in the endocannabinoid system, how do you determine which strain they should take? Different strains have different components of cannabis and also the terpene, all these ingredients.

Len May: I think it's important for people to understand how the endocannabinoid system works first, and then how do phytocannabinoids interact with that and what's right for the individual. So we have this great modulating system, the endocannabinoid system. It was only discovered in 1992 by Dr. Rafael Mechoulam, an Israeli scientist. And the way that it works, it gets signals from the other systems and it sends the signal up the central nervous system, sort of like salmon swimming upstream to your brain. And then your brain decides which endogenous neurochemicals to excrete. So the two that belong to the endocannabinoid system are anandamide and 2-AG. What happens is when we are stressed or other things are out of balance, the brain releases different levels of endogenous endocannabinoids.

Going back to what you just said about the different effects and how it affects individuals, we have some genetics that are associated with that. There are certain genes — I bring the example of fatty acid amide hydrolase. I think it's a really interesting example because it's one that people can relate to. The gene, the initials are FAAH. That specific polymorphism actually produces an enzyme that breaks down anandamide. So if you have this genetic predisposition, you may be producing less anandamide than the average person. And if that's the case, you may actually be secreting more cortisol than the average person. And some people walk around with inflammation and pain because their cortisol, their immune system is overreacting to that, cortisol stays longer in their bloodstream, etc. So if you can subsidize with the right amount of Delta 9 THC, you can subsidize for the amount of anandamide that you're deficient in.

So you're taking that Delta 9 THC, it'll bind to your CB1 receptors and it'll secrete more anandamide. When you consume cannabidiol, CBD, it has an affinity for the CB2 receptor. So CB1 receptors are mostly in your brain, your central nervous system. CB2 receptors are your immune, digestive, et cetera. So together, they're working in concert to reduce the inflammation and then work on subsidizing the anandamide.

How much should you take? Some people are rapid metabolizers, some people are poor metabolizers, there's genes for that too. Cytochrome P450 markers — for THC, it's CYP2C9, for CBD, it's CYP2C19, and then together it goes to the cytochrome pathway of 3A4, which actually a lot of pharmaceutical medications go through so you can have some contraindications. If somebody has a predisposition of stress reactivity, so they have a CNR1 gene that actually turns on stress reactivity, if somebody's taken too much Delta 9 THC, they can trigger that stress reactivity gene. So Delta 9 has a very narrow therapeutic window. Looking at somebody's genetic profile, we'll say, okay, we'll maybe take one part Delta 9 THC to four or five parts of CBD. That's one way that our tests can look at.

16:18 Terpenes: D-Limonene, Myrcene, and Linalool

Len May: The second thing is terpenes that you mentioned. Terpenes give the plant its smell and they also work in conjunction with the cannabinoids to produce an effect. Some of them are related to — D-limonene has an association with dopamine production. So it gives you that feeling of up. This is what sativa dominant hybrids have a lot of, that D-limonene. And other ones that are indica dominant have more of something that's sedative, like myrcene. And it has a smell, it smells skunkier, diesel-y. You can kind of smell it in a way, and that's more sedative. So if somebody's prone to having that stress up, you need something that can level you out, like a terpene called linalool, it's also found in lavender. So understand the percentage of cannabinoids and the terpene profile, and you can make a suggestion or a recommendation for which varieties of cannabinoids are more aligned with you and what you should be avoiding.

17:22 Matching Products to Your Profile

Dr. Yi Song: So in your EndoDNA company, in addition to testing people's DNA composition in the endocannabinoid system, do you also test the strains of different cannabis?

Len May: Yeah, so we don't test the cannabis itself. What we do is we get test results from different manufacturers that test their products. So the way that it works is you have a suggestion. Let's say we do your endocannabinoid system report and it says you're better with something a little more balanced. One part CBD, one part THC, and then your terpene profiles may be linalool and beta-caryophyllene. So now we'll take the certificate of analysis of test results from different manufacturers. We'll run that algorithm and we'll show you how close that product matches the suggested ratio.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay. So basically, once you've done people's endocannabinoid system DNA testing, then you can actually recommend a particular product from manufacturer A because that matches their endocannabinoid system better.

Len May: Yeah, it'll give you a percentage match to say this product is maybe an 85% match based on your genetic predisposition. And this product maybe is a 15% match. So maybe you should take the one that's closest to what is being suggested for you. Plus there's a feedback loop. When you're responding back how you're doing with that, the platform learns with machine learning with AI, and it gets better and better. And we do this not just for the endocannabinoid system. We have a patent on the use of DNA to make recommendations associated with the endocannabinoid system. But now looking at the genome, we have a decision support platform for healthcare practitioners. It uses DNA and other biomarkers to recommend different treatment protocols for practitioners that are more personalized. And then with that feedback loop, that also learns. They don't have to involve phytocannabinoids, but they can. Maybe they're looking at a combination of different things. Maybe it's hormone optimization with lifestyle modifications, with phytocannabinoids or other plant medicines or supplements.

19:44 Building the Custom Genetic Array

Dr. Yi Song: So tell me a little bit more about how you developed your array for the endocannabinoid system, because I believe you have the patent on that.

Len May: Yeah, so we have a patent on the use of DNA to make recommendations associated with the endocannabinoid system. Early on, we were trying to figure out what off-the-shelf arrays, open arrays are available. So we approached Illumina, a company that makes these gene sequencers and arrays, and they said we have this global screening array, which actually sequences somewhere around, at that time, 650,000 genetic biomarkers, or single nucleotide polymorphisms. And we said, okay, let us take advantage of that. And in the research that we were doing with our bioinformatics team, they were missing a bunch of SNPs from that array. So we asked them if they could build us a custom array. So on top of the GSA, we have our own GSA version three plus, so it has all the other markers associated with that, and we added onto the array.

20:49 Tests Available to Consumers and Practitioners

Dr. Yi Song: So anybody who wants to take this kind of test in combination of the genome, they can order it from your website?

Len May: Yeah, so the only test that's available to the general public is the endocannabinoid system test. All the other tests that we have are through healthcare practitioners. Our customer is a functional medical practitioner. The tests that we have available today are our endocannabinoid system test, we also have a cognitive test, which we're in three clinical trials right now for different cognitive drugs for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and autism. We're doing the genetic sequencing for those as well. We have a female and male hormone health test, which is regenerative health and wellness. And we have nutrigenomics and skin. The platform is interesting this way because we have a patent on machine learning based efficacy predictions based on genetic and biometric information, and it's an ever-learning platform. So if you're doing peptides and stem cells and exosomes, what the platform will do is learn what protocols you may have, it'll make those suggestions based on those genetic and other biomarkers, and then there's a feedback loop. It actually comes back and says, based on the feedback, not just patient reported outcome, but epigenetic changes and biomarker changes, it'll start making those suggestions to further and better the experience for the individual and the practitioner.

22:35 Epigenetics and the Horvath Clock

Dr. Yi Song: So does your testing also test the epigenetic part?

Len May: Yes, we definitely test the epigenetic part right now. We use an algorithm from the Horvath clock. So we'll take that algorithm and we'll look at biomarkers in blood and serum levels and see what methylation changes are there based on the genetic predisposition and the protocol that's being suggested for them.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, so actually, if somebody does a certain treatment like peptides, if they've been doing it for three months or six months, then they test their genome again with your test, would you be able to detect the methylation changes on certain genes?

Len May: Yeah, so they wouldn't test it with a saliva sample. That's not the way our test works. They would go and test the actual blood, we would get their blood work and we would take the blood work and see what changes there are to methylation based on the baseline levels that we have previously.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay so it's basically from the methylation test but it's not specific to which gene you had.

Len May: That's coming very shortly. We're mapping the genome to the epigenome right now so we'll have biological age and all that stuff as well. But it's not a direct one-to-one correlation yet. That's coming in our next version.

Dr. Yi Song: Yeah, you need to have more data to be able to analyze those things.

Len May: Absolutely.

24:05 A Word for the Listener

Dr. Yi Song: If this episode has been valuable for you in any way, please leave a review or a comment. It really helps more people to find more reliable research-backed information in the space that's occupied with a lot of noise.

24:28 BIOS: Chat with Your DNA

Dr. Yi Song: Okay. So then, like you said, your genome test is mostly for practitioners. So when practitioners get the result for a particular patient, do they just put it in your analysis system and then your system will tell the practitioner what's going on with that patient?

Len May: It's such a good question because — I'm not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I'm just a person who's interested in a lot of things. But I was speaking to a group of doctors, a significant group of doctors, and I asked them if there were any questions at the end. There were no questions. I thought, I may have not done a good job. And then afterwards, I started getting emails and texts from the doctors that were part of that. So I realized they don't understand genetics. A lot of them. Not everybody, but they don't understand. So we built a platform called BIOS that allows you to interrogate the genome. It's built on the Anthropic healthcare model grounded on that — it's the manufacturers who make Claude, for instance — and it's trained on specific healthcare and biometric information, and it's grounded on that ever-learning. So you don't have to understand the genome. You can ask it questions. You can interrogate the genome. Chat with your DNA, we say. So you have your genome and you can ask questions. Hey, show me Len's metabolic markers or show me hormone health. What type of aromatizer Len is so I know how to dose Len correctly? So you can always ask it questions and it makes it much easier to give you treatment protocol suggestions because it speaks an eighth-grade language.

Dr. Yi Song: So you already have that platform set up. So people just go in there, put whatever person's genetic testing results from your genome testing, and then just ask questions, and the platform will give the answer?

Len May: Yes, so the way that it works is they swab, they register their patients HIPAA and GDPR compliant, they send their sample to our lab. It takes about 14 business days to get your results. In the meantime, they would send their patient to get their blood work. So we have our baseline of blood work. Once we get the genetic information back, the doctor would log into their portal. There's also a patient portal. They would log in, they would get all their information from their genetic data, from their biomarkers, and then it would give a treatment protocol suggestion. It breaks it into lifestyle modifiers, any pharmaceutical intervention, supplementation, etc., or anything that you do in your practice — peptides, exosomes, stem cells, anything else. Now it has a treatment plan suggestion and a doctor can add those into the treatment plan or say no, I don't want this or I want to modify that. Now you have a treatment plan and the patient has it in their patient portal. So when they come back in six weeks and three months and six months, and they get their blood work done again, it'll show how efficacious that protocol is based on those changes to methylation and other biomarkers.

27:50 Pricing and How It Compares to 23andMe

Dr. Yi Song: Okay. So then how much do you charge people to do these tests?

Len May: $1 million. So our tests vary depending on who the doctor is, but they're around four to $500 per test. And here's the good news. Once we swab you and you did your cognitive test, for instance, and if the doctor wants to give you a hormone health test, they don't have to swab again. It's all software driven. So you can just press a button and it'll instantaneously provide you the next test as well.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay. So basically your price is comparable to 23andMe or Ancestry.

Len May: Well, 23andMe is out of business already, so hopefully we're much better than that. But you really bring up a good point. This is the thing that always bothered me with genetic testing. I've done all of them — the 23andMe's, the Ancestries, and My Family Tree DNA, you name it. And the thing that bothered me is the "now so what." So you did your DNA test and I want to understand, where do I go from here? And that's the challenge. That's why we wanted to give those tools to practitioners. So now they can have a protocol that's associated with that, that's personalized to the individual, and we'll get really close to precision health and wellness.

Dr. Yi Song: Yes. So is 23andMe really out of business now?

Len May: Yes.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, so they went bankrupt?

Len May: They were bankrupt and then they were acquired, or their data was acquired by another company.

29:28 Data Privacy: De-Identified by Design

Dr. Yi Song: But I heard 23andMe and Ancestry actually sell your data.

Len May: I don't know what they do with your data. But when you used to go to 23andMe, there's a checkbox that's marked in their privacy policy — you opt in or out. So you have to opt out. We don't sell data, but we gather data. But our data is de-identified. We don't care about Len's personal information. When you register, you have a number that's a record locator, the same way your doctor record is. We need data to be able for the system to learn. For the machine learning. But we're not marketing. We don't care about your personal information. That's the difference.

30:16 The Cognitive Test and Why Genetics Is Only a Piece

Dr. Yi Song: So I also did a DNA test with a company called The DNA Company. They also had the cognitive test, but they never had the endocannabinoid system test. But then in your cognitive test, in addition to testing the endocannabinoid system, do you also test the dopamine receptor, the enzyme that's related to destroying the dopamine secreted?

Len May: Absolutely. It's a pretty comprehensive test. I think we have over six or seven hundred markers that are associated with that. We look at things like predisposition to Alzheimer's, APOEs, et cetera. Look, I want to let people know about genetics: it's just a piece. It's not everything. And a lot of these are polygenic. So just because you have one genetic predisposition, it doesn't mean anything. You have to look at a pattern, all these different things. And you have to look at lifestyle, but it's an indicator. If you're not looking at it, it's incomplete. Your analysis is incomplete. I think you should look at everything — including traditional Chinese medicine, including, are you hot, are you cold — you have to incorporate everything.

The idea is, how we started working with practitioners, doctors, we had a call from one of our doctors who said, I'm seeing a lot of young women and they do hormone optimization. I'm seeing women in their late 20s, early 30s with perimenopause symptoms and I'm starting to see a lot of women that are in menopause with really adverse effects — hot flash severity, weight gain, sleep issues. So is there a way we can get ahead of these things? And that's the goal. The idea is to try to get ahead of some of the things that are in your path. Let's see if we can stop you from stepping into a pothole that's already in your road.

Dr. Yi Song: Yes, so that's actually early prevention too.

Len May: Exactly.

32:37 Trial and Error vs. Grounded Machine Learning

Dr. Yi Song: So when you do these tests with your system, the practitioner would, based on your machine learning results, interpret and tell the patient what to try. But this process is also a little bit trial and error because even the machine learning isn't a perfect system, right?

Len May: Well, nothing against ChatGPT or OpenAI or anything, but it does have a tendency to hallucinate. Makes mistakes. I was talking to a doctor at a conference recently who said half his time is spent with patients re-educating them based on protocols that a doctor gave them with the use of ChatGPT. So we grounded the machine learning algorithm based on a proven healthcare model, and it's trained based on what you do. The doctor makes the final decision. So it's giving you suggestions based on reference data, based on everything else we could possibly find. But at the end of the day, you make the final decision. And when you make the decision for the protocol, the feedback loop verifies and validates that. And the machine learning gets better and better. At some point, it'll be like, oh Len, your genetics are similar to the 50 people that we had this year with this genetics. And this protocol showed it was effective for that. So now it's trained and learned, so it gets better and better.

34:20 Follow-Up Testing and mRNA Mapping

Dr. Yi Song: So then how long do you recommend after applying certain intervention or treatments that the patients should do another genome testing to see whether there are any changes in the epigenetics?

Len May: So you don't need to do another genetic test, but you should do an epigenetic test. Different types of epigenetic tests are available. We use methylation and we get that through blood work, not saliva, but there's also mRNA mapping that's available, very comprehensive, very costly, but for certain diseases, especially oncology, I think it's extremely important because different types of cancers associate with different type of genetic predispositions and protocols.

Dr. Yi Song: So do you offer that mRNA test?

Len May: We do not do mRNA testing right now.

Dr. Yi Song: But then do you recommend where people can go?

Len May: We do, and we have epigenetic testing that's available through our platform, but it's not mRNA testing right now.

35:30 The Psychedelics Panel

Dr. Yi Song: So then do you see your test shows certain people would have certain reactions to psychedelics?

Len May: Yeah, it's another test. We haven't released this test yet, but we have a test on psychedelics. I'll tell you how we got to this test. I was working with a doctor in Florida. I was talking to her on the phone. She's a friend and she administers ketamine therapy. And we're talking, I hear yelling in the background. She said, hold on a second, I'll come right back. And she comes back and she said, I have an emergency, I have to go. She calls me back the next day. So what was the deal? She said we had a patient that had a psychotic-like effect. I said, people have that from ketamine? I didn't know. She said once in a while. And I said, what if we could let you know before a patient comes in that somebody's predisposed to this? What would you do? She said, well, maybe we'll give a beta blocker, or maybe we just hold their hand and give them more of a personalized experience. So we created a test that looks at ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin, ibogaine, LSD, and shows what genetic predisposition adverse effects somebody may have before they administer one of these substances.

36:59 Is Cannabis a Psychedelic?

Dr. Yi Song: So are these psychedelic ingredients also acting on the endocannabinoid system or a different system?

Len May: Well, they all have different systems associated with them. Some may act on the dopamine system, etc. I believe, and there is some science supporting this, that cannabis is a psychedelic. I believe that it excretes neurochemicals in your brain, and it changes the perception in neurochemistry. So to me, that's the definition of a psychedelic. But yeah, different psychedelics act in different systems. Psilocybin is a completely different system, a different experience than phytocannabinoids would create. It creates neuroplasticity. We're not sure exactly how it works. We're trying to figure out, but it does create neuroplasticity. And ketamine acts completely differently.

37:59 Chandelier Cells, PTSD, and the Ketamine Mechanism

Len May: I saw a video by this professor talking about how ketamine works. He was explaining the chandelier cells that are in the brain. So you have neurons, thoughts are going to the synapse, but with people with PTSD — he was treating specifically PTSD patients — they would actually have the chandelier cell that would sit at the synapse and sort of choke off the transmission. And so your memory is kind of rotating over and over. You're not creating new thoughts and memories. And when you administer ketamine, that chandelier cell opens up like a flower, accepts the ketamine, and then you're able to have new thoughts. The thing is when you come back out of your journey, whatever you're on, you're back to where you were. So the reintegration is extremely important. Working with people who are experts in that field to take those thoughts that you had, those glimmers of hope and light, and amplify them.

Dr. Yi Song: So that study was particularly related to ketamine, not, say, ibogaine?

Len May: There's different studies for ibogaine, there's different studies for psilocybin. Psilocybin is probably the most studied out of those substances now, LSD as well, but we're still trying to figure out that neuroplasticity, what is happening with that. I have my own thoughts and ideas, no basis in science, but I believe that some of these are shutting down the noise that's in our brain and letting us focus and open up to new things, that tune our antenna in to things that we may not be in tune with.

39:48 DMT: Letting Go

Len May: And when I tried DMT, dimethyltryptamine, here's my lesson. I'll explain what I experienced. The first time I did it, everything went black. I didn't know where I was, but all of a sudden, I started feeling the sensation of falling. I was falling and falling rapidly. It seemed like there was a ladder or something. I was trying to hold on to the rungs of the ladder. And at some point, I fell, and I think I died, but I woke up. And the person that was administering said, explain what happened. I told him and he said, why are you trying to hold on? Maybe you should just let go. And that's my control issues. So next time I did it, I let it go and I had a wonderful journey. Felt great. Saw things, not sure what they were, different objects and different colors, but it felt really good and it felt freeing. So maybe it's trying to tell us something, and tuning into that antenna, it's blocked by all the noises going on in our heads.

Dr. Yi Song: So then after your second treatment, did you feel your perspective of life changed?

Len May: I felt there was a lesson in this whole thing of letting go. Now, I have to remind myself over and over. But at the time and for quite some time, I felt that one of the things that prevents me from moving forward is friction that's self-imposed. And what I mean by that is trying, doing, pushing. And I believe that letting go of that allows things to flow much better. Like water flows from the ground up and cycles through that. And that's the thing in Western culture, we forget that we're always working. We're trying, we're pushing. I think we have to be more in flow, like with water.

Dr. Yi Song: Yes. Just like following the natural rhythm.

Len May: Exactly.

42:03 Cannabis as Go-To, Psilocybin with Intention

Dr. Yi Song: So since you've tried so many different psychedelics, do you have one particular that you think is beneficial to your body more?

Len May: Well, cannabis is my go-to medicine. That is something that I consume as my supplement. But with age and different mental state, the amount that I consume and what I consume changed. So when I was a kid, it was a lot more, and it was maybe even less therapeutic. I didn't realize. Now it's specifically for focus and attention. I like psilocybin from time to time. I think it allows me to answer questions that I may have posed that I'm not sure what the answer is. So intention is key. Having set an intention — I want to get an answer to this question — allows me to dial in to that answer when I'm in a psychedelic experience.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, so then how often do you think people should do that?

Len May: Oh, I think it's an individual thing. Sometimes once is enough for some people. I don't have a calling for DMT anymore. I've done it. Can I say I will never have a calling again? No, but I experienced it enough for myself and I got it. For some people, you have to be aware — are you doing it with intention? Are you doing it for a therapeutic reason or are you doing it because you want to escape? You want to numb, you want to get away from yourself. So the reason behind this is really important.

43:51 Waiting on the Psychedelics Test

Dr. Yi Song: So you say you're still developing your DNA test for psychedelics and how people react to them. We don't have enough data to really analyze that yet, right?

Len May: Not yet. We'll get there soon.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, so we're waiting for the new patent from you from EndoDNA.

44:13 Breaking Out of Cookie-Cutter Sick Care

Dr. Yi Song: So for people who are trying to not just use your EndoDNA testing, but also try to understand their response to different treatments better, what's your recommendation to them?

Len May: Well, I think that we need to get out of this whole cookie cutter approach to this sick care system that we have in the United States. We have to understand that big pharma is driven by profits. I'm not against big pharma. I think there's a lot of things that it's used for effectively, but we're all different. The idea is to take care of the symptom that we're expressing and not drill down to the root cause of what's causing the symptom. A lot of work that you're doing. So I think everybody should be aware that they're an individual. They should have a relationship with a healthcare practitioner that's a partnership. Your doctor may have hundreds of patients. You are your most important patient. So you have to be accountable to yourself, take action, even if the action may be uncomfortable, and collaborate with your practitioner and work on your own personalized journey. Learn as much about yourself as possible and learn how to prevent some of these things from becoming diseases when they don't have to be.

Dr. Yi Song: That's exactly what I also propose for treating the root cause, follow the natural course, so everything falls into the same principle.

45:58 Dose, Set, and Setting

Dr. Yi Song: But then if people have already tried psilocybin and some people told me they didn't feel anything, is that also similar to CBD products or cannabis where they actually were not doing the right dose or the right treatment?

Len May: Yeah, it's hard to say. I think dose is really important. We talked briefly about microdosing. We're all individuals. How I metabolize — I can be an ultra rapid metabolizer. So I can take the same dose as you and I don't feel it, but you're going to have an experience. So dose is extremely important. The other thing is set and setting — what your intention is and where you're having this experience. We are connected to nature. If we're doing something that is connecting us to nature, I think you will have a different experience than you will at a party. You're more in tune. So I think that dose, set, and setting is really important.

Dr. Yi Song: Yeah, definitely not doing it at a party. You need to do the ritual, like journaling, counseling. And then after the treatment, you need to do other things to help the neuroplasticity.

Len May: You know, grounded, and have somebody who knows what they're doing to be able to reintegrate you and decipher some of the things that you may have experienced that you're not sure about. For me, in this personal experience — and some people may share this or not — psilocybin is a vasoconstrictor. So I start getting cold when I have a hero's dose, a dose that I know I'm going to go on the journey with. I start feeling cold, especially my extremities get cold.

Dr. Yi Song: So what's the dosage you were using?

Len May: Great question. It depends on the fruit that you're using. There's a different amount. I can use one called Golden Teacher. That's five milligrams of psilocybin, psilocin. Or I can use something called Penis Envy, which is a lot more potent. So I can take the same amount, but the amount of psilocin in it is different. So you have to actually look at the fruit that you're consuming as well.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay. Yeah, that's a lot of work to figure out. Are there tests for it? Have you figured out the gene that's related to the degradation of the psilocybin component in humans yet?

Len May: No, not yet. I have a theory and a few ideas, but not yet.

Dr. Yi Song: All right, because we definitely need to know that to see how people react, what dosage we need to use.

Len May: You're right. Absolutely.

48:50 How to Contact EndoDNA

Dr. Yi Song: All right. So then if people want to do these types of tests, how do they contact you? How do they find the practitioners who offer the test through your patented endocannabinoid system tests?

Len May: Yeah, endoDNA.com is the first place you would start. If anybody wants an endocannabinoid system test, they can buy it directly. It retails for $199. It'll be sent directly to your home, and you can see the results right there in your own portal. If any practitioners want to take advantage of any of our other tests, same place, EndoDNA, sign up and we'll get you the tests you need.

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, so once they do the EndoDNA test for the endocannabinoid system, you said they don't need to swab their mouth again to get the sample. So then you already have their sample in your system — they just need to say I want to know the cognitive system or the hormone system, then it will come up.

Len May: Yeah, there are other tests that are available, but we don't have to swab again. You're absolutely right. And also if anybody has any questions, I'm available on social, Len May on Instagram, I think Len May DNA. I'm very active. I'll answer questions and we have a whole team of people that are supporting and will help answer any questions as well.

50:13 Closing Thoughts

Dr. Yi Song: Okay, very nice having you here to discuss this complicated system we're exploring. But it is definitely worth our endeavor to figure out how we can address the dosage, the methods we apply, all these things, because I think they are definitely beneficial to certain types of conditions and even certain types of people. If they do it the right way, it will benefit them.

Len May: Thank you. I appreciate it.